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7 Persistent Myths About Ancient Egypt You Will Never Look at The Same Again

cleopatra_coinCleopatra Was Egyptian 

Cleopatra VII Philopator (69 B.C. – Aug. 12, 30 B.C.) is likely the most well-known of all the ancient Egyptian queens. What many people do not know is that Cleopatra was more than likely not ethnically Egyptian.

Born during the Greek occupation of ancient Egypt, Cleopatra actually descended from a long line of Greek Macedonians who descended from Ptolemy I, one of Alexander the Great’s most trusted lieutenants. The Ptolemaic Dynasty ruled Egypt from 323 to 30 B.C., and for the most part, maintained their Greek heritage.

The name Cleopatra was given to a number of the female members of the family. Her mother bore the same name, as well as an older sister, which is why the famous queen is actually known as Cleopatra the seventh. She reportedly was the first member of her family who learned to speak the Egyptian language.

Debates about her ethnicity rage on, but coins minted during her lifetime are likely the most accurate depiction of the monarch.

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106 thoughts on “7 Persistent Myths About Ancient Egypt You Will Never Look at The Same Again

  1. Tonie J. Short says:

    The Sphinx is actually the face of a black woman. Menes had his mother's face put on it You know black men love their mama's.

  2. but this is showing that around 1550s bce we afrikans were mingling with the other immigrants, until the invasions of 663bce…but these asiactics invaded in the 1400s and 1300s bce for the first time not 1550…as in the queen on the coin in the 2nd part; that was a man on that coin…smh. this queen she wasnt greek she was nubian afrikan, but she mingled with the greeks roman is all…this info must be discerned..

  3. the influences all came from the afrikan to the asiactics…they communted back and forth to north afrikan often mainly from their famines and lack of resources as everyone does until this day…taking back the north afrikan cultures…then later developed their style and makings learning from north afrikans..

  4. jealousy! ahhha. blowing off the nose of the sphinix

  5. Joan Coulter says:

    Teach, My Sister

  6. Mo Cheeks Gatty says:

    this list has to be the dumbest of the dumb.

  7. Mo Cheeks Gatty says:

    of course they needed slaves… they did their own digging and carrying of the Bricks?????.. no

  8. Sundiata Keita says:

    this website is on some agent shit for real. they trying to rewrite your history for you like them white folks on Listverse. hell, they probably the ones who run this website. speaking of that, does anybody know where this website came from and how it got popular so quick?

  9. No she was greek look it up She was in charge of egypt underneath Macedonian Greek dynasty that ruled Egypt from the time of Alexander the Great's death in 323 BCE to about 30 BCE

  10. To challenge the author, regarding the Sphinx, please read the writings of C.F. Volney during his travels with Napolean. At no time was it stated that the Sphinx incurred damages by any form of vandalism. In fact, Count Volney was a distinguished French scholar who visited Egypt in the late 1700's, wrote with astonishment “…when I visited the Sphinx, its appearance gave me the key to the riddle. Beholding that head typically Negro in all its features…” He later added “…the Egyptians were true Negroes of the same type as all native-born Africans.”

  11. Jose Ortiz says:

    The last cleopatra was a half breed like halle barrey. And Obama. Is Obama black. ?

  12. Dmax Lomax says:

    Wasn't the Greeks of black origin in that period of time? I'm also starting to think that this journalist is getting his info from the history channel.

  13. The article is right Cleopatra was of Greek origin. All the indigenous Egyptians dynasty were Black Africans. But during the multiple foreign conquests of Egypt got progressively more caucasian and west asian with time up to the Arab and British conquests. That's the reason why most modern egyptians are not black anymore due to the multiple foreign conquest of Ancient Egypt. Namely Assyrians, Persians, Romans, Greeks, Turks, Circassians, Arabs, etc. It started even earlier with the Hyksos (Aamu) conquest before they were pushed back and expelled out by the 18th Dynasty.

  14. "As a consequence the many invasions of ancient Egypt, the population has changed over the years. There were Hyksos (Heka Khasut) from Asia, who melted into the Delta Region around 1500 B.C.E., and then a series of invasions by the Assyrians, Persians and Greeks. With the arrival of large groups of Arabians in the seventh century C.E., the racial character of Egypt began to change.

    The resultant mixtures of Africans, Arabs, Greeks and Persians were to be jointed with Turks, Russians, Albanians, British, and French to create a different population that there had been during the ancient times.

    One cannot say that today's Egypt is the same as the Egypt of antiquity anymore than one can say that today's North America is the same as it was 5000 years ago."

    – From The Oxford Encyclopedia of African Thought, Volume 1 (2010)

  15. Cleopatra? Greek descendent? lol, here we go again. please.

  16. That's interesting, Narmer/Menes was the first pharaoh around 3100 b.c., but there're geologist and alternative Egyptologist that say the sphinx is at least 12000 b.c., or maybe much older due to the water erosion pattern. They say regular water fall occurred in Egypt up to 12000 b.c. and can be the only explanation for the water erosion pattern seen on the sphinx. So, how old is Egypt?

  17. It never ceases to amaze me how many refute the truth about Cleopatra. She WAS born in Egypt and WAS of Greek descent. Her image is seen on four items from her time showing her features to be Greek more so than Ancient Greek.

  18. Ray Holiday says:

    She may have been Greek but Greeks were olive complexion so they had color.

  19. Ray Holiday says:

    Nah I never found evidence of slavery in my research either. That's just bi-bull stuff

  20. Ray Holiday says:

    Nah I never found evidence of slavery in my research either. That's just bi-bull stuff

  21. Sundiata Keita says:

    Willie Matthews all you did was copy and paste from wikipedia. wikipedia isnt a research site. and just because Egypt was colonized doesnt mean she was Greek.

  22. Sundiata Keita says:


  23. Sundiata Keita says:

    Jose Ortiz white people call Obama nigger everyday, so that qualifies as black to me.

  24. Tonie J. Short says:

    Collin Johnson I see you are from the Kemotologist school of though, Collin Johnson. This gets into a whole new set of questions. I would ask you to look at what is being discussed about South Africa and the Adam stone. It is said those circles of stones use sound as energy. This is being called the land of Havila. The Boors have took down and tried to hide so much of African history. Some of it is in Pretoria University and others buried. tart researching and have fun!

  25. Tonie J. Short says:

    What is now Arabia is said to have been inhabited by blacks. Even in Turkey, blacks were living there. They are called Colchians I kid you not, look it up. There have been so much genocide, pushing and shoving in this part of the world its ridiculous.

  26. Tonie J. Short yes they destitute us strip us of our resources then publicize to the media that we are criminals, uneducated, and need to do for ourselves; pull up our boot straps, but they stole our boots..and basically we are at War.

  27. Collin Johnson ISNT EGYPT SODOM ALSO?



  30. Karis NuNyambe Balôck says:

    Yes she has been installed by the romans, it's colonisation man

  31. Karis NuNyambe Balôck says:

    no the greeks are eurasian but took a lot of civilisation frm egypt were some of them went to be trained

  32. Karis NuNyambe Balôck says:

    you know better, sources please? I don't see her face on the coins as negroid.

  33. Joseph Edwards As in Sodom and Gomorrah?

  34. Nefertina Abrams says:

    You could not sit on the throne in Kemet/Egypt without African royal blood, so the invaders also had to take a royal African wife, Cleopatra was what we all today biracial….

  35. Heru Ptah MeriTef says:

    How are you challenging the author when you agree?

  36. Pam A Jack says:

    to all historians, if the skilled Egyptian craftsmen built the pyramids then why come when the hebrew left Egypt no more great pyramids was build ? if the Egyptian build it then build one today .

  37. Pam A Jack says:

    to all historians, if the skilled Egyptian craftsmen built the pyramids then why come when the hebrew left Egypt no more great pyramids was build ? if the Egyptian build it then build one today .

  38. Tonie J. Short says:

    Let the Hebrews build one somewhere. Just one. They have never built a pyramid anywhere.

  39. Pam A Jack says:

    yes they did , in Peru, Mexico many other parts of the would have pyramid's Great Pyramid of Cholula

  40. Pam A Jack says:

    Mexico has a rich history of pyramid building from the Maya civilization,

  41. Aljah Muhammad says:

    Ashra Kwesi produced video proof that a lot of statues of the Kemetian Kings and Queens had their noses missing, not just the Sphinx.

  42. Well, they got a couple of things right. They have found slave quarters consistent with Israelites, though it's far smaller than the BIble would suggest, and they took far more from Egyptian culture than they impacted it with.

    It's very obvious in Egyptian depictions that they were neither black nor asiatic/white-they clearly differentiated themselves even in one of the drawings depicted within this article (that was not a drawing of multiculturalism in Egypt, it was a drawing of the various races surrounding them, and themselves, depicted with the distinctly red Egyptian skin color, which is still very visible in rural Egypt). And it has been proven through genetic testing that the majority of the modern Egyptians are in fact extremely genetically similar to their ancient counterparts.

    I hate it when people scream: stop making the ancient Egyptians white or asian! While simultaneously trying to make them black. They have always been a very distinctive group of people, and I don't understand this massive worldwide impulse to make them "like us" visually. Their uniqueness should be celebrated, not belittled.

  43. Heru Ptah MeriTef I am challenging the author on the article from page 7 (regarding the Sphinx). The author says…"European visitors to Egypt prior to Napoleon’s expedition had already discovered the vandalism to the Sphinx. Sketches of the Sphinx by the Dane Frederic Louis Norden, made in 1738 and published in 1757, show the Sphinx was missing its nose. This predates Napoleon’s birth in 1769."
    I disagree with the content that article, which is what my prior comment outlines.

  44. Pyramids were built long before the Israelites were swallowed up into the empire.

  45. Pam A Jack says:

    prove it . show where you get that from

  46. Correct on most counts – esp the rebuttal against the 'mixed-race' theory. It amazes how most ignore common sense: Kemetyw (ancient Egyptians) made their Blackness very obvious in their art and it was noted heavily by the Israelites and, most especially, the Greeks and Romans.

    My one problem is the Cleopatra part. Cleopatra was a woman of dual ancestry (Greco-Egyptian), but racially Egyptian and, by inference, probably considered Black by Greeks and Romans.

  47. Shawn Mc says:

    Karis NuNyambe Balôck its sad but so many people want her to be black they will brush aside facts . clearly you can see the coin image and know from the hairstyle and features yet people are in denial

  48. Shawn Mc says:

    Mo Cheeks Gatty exactly, you need thousands of men to work damn near from sun up to dark. you really think they were all happy to be there and all of them were educated, this is the myth many people accept

  49. Shawn Mc says:

    its called corrosion. no one is running around breaking noses off status, if they wanted to get rid of an image they would take the whole face off

  50. Shawn Mc says:

    it was an islamic extremist that defaced the sphinx and he was put to death for it.

    islamic extremist are destroying ancient relics to this day

  51. Aljah Muhammad says:

    Shawn Mc Right…I never said someone was running around breaking noses off, I just said the videos show that it was more statues than just the Sphinx. According to Roniko Rashidi, the scholars told him it was both corrosion and the actual ancient Egyptians themselves that were responsible (something about believing the seed of life came through the nose). Rashidi said he saw noses missing of African statues in Cambodia and Rome also. He said more research should be done.

  52. Shawn Mc i hear u…kool…

  53. Joseph Edwards , Napoleon did attempted to blow up the sphinx but in truth the time eras are much earlier, it was the so called Arabs (Assyrians), who invaded in 663bce, the first to cause damage from hatred on Afrika's astonishment of its beauty, intellect and wonder of the world, and later others as well; they 'are all still jealous..

  54. Joseph Edwards naw americoon is and always was that, any earlier it was babylon of the euros, rome…

  55. Willie Matthews , she was not just greek. much of the mingling was ongoing by those times she was nubian; she got with the geek greeks/rome julius caesar and had children..for purpose, and sake of saving Egypt, and her people…he left his greek wife for Cleo…and committed suide over her

  56. Ray Holiday Willie Matthews , she was not just greek. much of the mingling was ongoing by those times she was nubian; she got with the geek greeks/rome julius caesar and had children..for purpose, and sake of saving Egypt, and her people…he left his greek wife for Cleo…and committed suide over her.

  57. Sundiata Keita yes most everyone were black then, and so julius caesar they were euro rome; this is how they trip us up on our history from all of the mingling/mixing…thank you for your spirit to understand and knowledge King, hotep.

  58. Sundiata Keita yes most everyone were black then, and so julius caesar they were euro rome; this is how they trip us up on our history from all of the mingling/mixing…thank you for your spirit to understand and knowledge King, hotep.

  59. Pam A Jack , hebrew are not ethnic; its only a religion this has been a farce to delude many…you yourself named the mayans afrikan…not hebrews.

  60. Tonie J. Short hebrew is not ethnic its 'religion' and there are pyramids all over because black people were all over the world as is today but then we were first all over for a very long time b4 any euro existed or knew how to read…or write. pyramids were used for various purposes to harvest foods once seed were planted in them the plants or harvest grew humongous…and more because where they were built was where the most energy was from the earh sun,air and water; we were so cool we'rent we? and we STILL ARE! hotep.

  61. Shawn Mc says:

    Lorraine Voss how do you know he attempted to blow up the sphinx? what proof do you have?
    you have the link yourself and you still cant get the facts right lol

  62. Shawn Mc says:

    Lorraine Voss your really on something heavy,are you in a cult where they teach this revisionist history?

  63. Shawn Mc , doo doo head consult the best…John H. Clarke, and unlike you, i dont fall so easy for what whitey says, i'l leave that one to you, and the coons who think they know…napoleon tried too…blow the face off let alone the nose…that link was to give the choice to reason of discern. tell me Mc, do you truly believe everything you read, esp. from the euro? smh…and you call yourself educated…so, sad.

  64. Shawn Mc, just cause i feel for you, i will give you a clue; napoleon was financed, paid by rothschild…ok, try 'thinking' on that one…i'l wait.

  65. Shawn Mc says:

    Lorraine Voss well for your information the link you provide had about 5 different source material , you either didnt noticed or didn't care considering how you depend solely on the same 3 afrocentric writers, by the way they never debated anyone or put their theories up for peer review to be seen by other scholars, they depend on sheep like you to praise their theories and embarrass themselves when they speak that insanity in normal circles

  66. Karis NuNyambe Balôck says:

    Lorraine Voss IF GREEKS WERE black, how come that their historians describe egyptians as extremely black?

  67. Shawn Mc says:

    Lorraine Voss i could find no proof of this finance.
    1797 napoleon proposed the egyptian campaign, in 1798 Nathan Mayer Rothschild was 21.
    what your sources ?


  69. Heru Ptah MeriTef great point, ase'

  70. Heru Ptah MeriTef You are correct. Simply put, my concerns about the article is based solely on the timeline, because we can agree that the damage to the Sphinx was not due to environmental occurrences. In the book titled "The Ruins", Volney stated…"It is upon seeing that head [the Sphinx of Giza] typically negroe in all it's features, I remember the remakable passage of Heroditus, the Ancient Egyptians were true negroes of the same type as all native born Africans.". With this, we should be able to ascertain that Volney was able to visibly see the true facial features of Sphinx. So, during Volney's visit to Egypt, the Sphinx could not have been severely vandalized.

  71. Shawn Mc , you are suppose to say that because this is how many are taught through their euro/jew educational system that supports their own, otherwise it would be redundant if they didnt mislead those as yourself. Its designed for them to have others to work for them and what they stand for, its clever but not to those who see, eye see.. do you get that?…and you must put in your own work on researching napoleon…

  72. Karis NuNyambe Balôck I didnt say that the egyptians were not extremely black they were…its the time eras that throws many off…from the 1000bce to 800bce there was much mixing of the Afrikan nation with the caucus mountain ppl from its mingling, then later the invasions, and some from exploring/traveling…but from time eras 3000bce, nubians,sudanians, or kush, eithiopians, then to the granddaughters the tamarie or the egyptians to maybe even 1300bce, yes we AFRIKA were pure of royalty as in blue black dark, and it was still different shades of black before eras 1000bce to 800bce,of mixing; the whole world was DARK…the euros information today trips us up with 'greek' who were before the romans ,but were the euro greeks/'true name' caucus mountains/original ppl, because much had been conquered or invaded by 332bce of alexander's invasion, and he was a greek; yet prior eras to these were the persians in 525, before that the assyrian, (arabs) in 663, who were the bastards of Afrika mixing with the causcaus mountain greek ppl, greeks…then from mixing with the assyrians were the euros of greek, out came the romans. last..100bce-30bce..all backstabbing us Afrika after we either helped in their problems, of famine, or befriend them..they later did their invasions wanting everything as they do until today…and many creeds of nations grew from there…

  73. Shawn Mc ,so whats your point, 5 different sources of material…still i ask you do you solely depend on what the euros/jew say or write…think on that one a sec…i'l wait…the most lying, murderous conniving, treacherous thieving diabolical, uh, do i need to go on describing the beast? that there is…are you kidding me? and yes they all did all debate with these crackers, and won over time…

  74. Shawn Mc , which rothschild was 21 nathan mayer? which as in 'plural' as in again whats your point? i'l help, how old were the others duh…

  75. Changing history so no one can see, who is the original and who is the copy!!!

  76. Jay Contreras says:

    Pam A Jack Olmecs. Have you seen the great heads found in Mexico? Nobody who is not drinking the neanderthal kool-aid can say those are not African.

  77. Pam A Jack says:

    Lorraine Voss i know that . its easyer to call them that . just like we call the jews ,their european.

  78. Errol Cooper says:

    Joan Coulter isn't it wonderful to discover the truth!

  79. Joan Coulter says:

    Tonie J. Short Yes, that is all true.

  80. Jay Knucklez says:

    The General History of Africa: studies and documents 1: Symposium on the Peopling of Ancient Egypt.
    The United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization. its been long documented and proved who the people of the nile were, we are not them, they are us…

  81. Joseph Edwards

    That's stupid

  82. Denise Amill says:

    She was racially mixed sweetie. Delve a little deeper.

  83. Cedric Best says:

    Well of course you wouldn't see historic evidence of the Israelites as slaves in Egypt, it's cuz of the nature of their departure. There is evidence of their entry and departure from Egypt, but the so called scholars are in denial.

  84. Ron V Jackson says:

    Who really has documentation of these findings. They seem a little suspect to me.

  85. Terehasa Lee MChunganji says:

    Damn nobody here reads and does research???

  86. John Fleming says:

    Greek occupation of Egypt "wow" lets just say you can actually compare those times to the European occupation of he Americas "in comparison, its almost yesterday in the time scale to before they came to Egypt" you have to be laterally brain dead to haggle over whose who in this equation. You can almost say that the Europeans were, or the last to rule anywhere in earths time scale. Always screaming "the bile says this, or the bible says that, then you know correspondence with the end time, let that be the reasoning.

  87. Denise Johnson says:

    Well, whoever said their were no hebrew slaves in Egypt is false. They just discovered evidence which supports the Red Sea, where Pharoahs army were destroyed, even the weapons and remains. They are now trying to escavate the chariots that they discovered as well. Why do people always try to separate, we are all human beings. Yes, we have different cultures, therefore we can learn from one another. As far as what is written in the holy scriptures Yahseph(Joseph) saved the Egyptian people from the famine.How do you think all those Hebrew people were over there. Its great to know history, but we must get alk the facts, not wat we choose to print.

  88. Denise Johnson says:

    As for Collin the earth is a little over 6,000 yrs old

  89. Denise Johnson says:

    I traveled to Egypt in 96 where we took a cruise down the Nile for 7 days. What was interesting is in thr North where you have Abu Simbel , Aswan and only places along the North you have the darkest skin known as Nubians, but in the south region you have the lighter skin who are mixed with Greek and Hebrew blood with light eyes as well. I saw an array of colors just people o me living in another part of the world. I had silky dreads and the people treated me like I fell out of the sky. I wondered why, until I went to the papyrus museum they kept saying hathor, that is the god they worship and she had dread locks also. The mummies had dread locks as well as I saw why visiting the Cairo Muaeum. Yes the Egyptian people had a wealth of knowledge and they also worshipped every God known to man. When the Hebrew people came out of Egypt many kept the godworship they learned instead of the written laws given by Mosheh. Sodom and Gomorrah and referenced to Egypt meant immorality as practicing a way of life without moral laws that bring forth peace, health, blessings

  90. Dee Queen says:

    Lorraine Voss and We have always been at War.

  91. Denise Johnson says:

    It's funny that if you want to make a people disappear, you erase them from history. Our guide told us that if a pharoah built a statue of himself, whomever reigned st that time would erase his name. Just like the Catholic Church changed the Sabbath, to Sunday, sun-od worship. There is no where in the scriptures that said worship on Sunday. Thimk about the book burnings, what didnt they want us to know. They hid the creator Yahweh's name, Yahshua and the Prophets. Know your history or you will fall for anything

  92. Bunch of ullshit the gyptians was the most prestigious Civilization that was BUILD, Ran , and in POWER OF African people. Something the WHITE man will always envy and never admit to without lightening up the truth.

  93. Tony Crosby says:

    Sorry, did the 3rd slide suggest the fact that the Bible isn't true? That the Egyptians didn't enslave black Hebrews? Someone please chime in.

  94. Sambo Jallo says:

    Hebrews where not black

  95. Did you read the piece? It was conclusive that Egyptians were Black.

  96. The Catholic Church also expelled Black people as children of GOD. Giving way to the horrible rise of slavery and ill treatment of the Black race.

  97. Crawl back into your bible. This piece just denied all you claim here, SCIENTIFICALLY sound. Egyptians were /are Black peolpe

  98. Pam A Jack These Jews are ashkenazi jews.

  99. Jacqueline Henriquez, define black people. Also, I'm a human being…which people are 99.9% alike and .1% different. We are separated by over 24 thousand languages. We may have different cultures but we are all still people. The Catholic Church is the most evil organization on the earth, in fact the Vatican which means divining serpent. They are over the kings and religions on the earth. The Catholic Church also made money off the slaves and the nuns too. Check the historical facts or will you justify with opinion. You can have your own opinion and we can choose to disagree. Let's get back to the Catholic Church which had their hand i many atrocities including the Crusades and Inquisitions. The Egyptians ranged in a variety of colors, even the statutes depicted various shades of people. Maybe you can crawl into the bible and maybe it will help you to not deny the truth. Maybe you can check out from the library to understand breed in of animals. Please don't misconstrue my words. It is a known fact that in the southern part of Egypt you have the light colored, light eyed Egyptians because they mixed in with the Greeks. The nubians were darker that lived in Aswan. Hatred shows ignorance and lack of education in facts. Again if this is what you believe that's your choice. I will crawl bury a hole in my scriptures and in the end I will gain more wisdom knowledge and understanding. You have a great day

  100. Pam A Jack says:

    Jacqueline Henriquez the jews are black and somewhere in 1492 they turn european on the ship to america . the black /color jews /herbrew are not european . just image how moses would blend in the egyptian pharaoh house as his son white …… i am still waiting for egypt to leave africa and move to europe to be white lol

  101. Shawn Mc I completed an online class with Dr. Rashidi months ago and he said that scholar's latest research suggest the noses may be broken due to Spiritual beliefs or ceremony,. less evidence suggest invaders broke the noses to destroy African features,..

  102. Nefertina Abrams Granted, your comment is from 2014, but I came across it today. You should have known better since that article is from 2009 AND it doesn't actually even say Arsinoe had been found, but "maybe". To this day, they were unable to even confirm whether the remains are of Arsinoe, but more so – they couldn't even test the DNA for racial traits. To add to this, there isn't even confirmation Arsinoe was a full sister to Cleopatra – in fact, historians mostly agree, based on politics and documents, Arsinoe was a half sister and born of a different mother (due to succession lines and rampant adultery and incest). Heck, Cleopatra married her own brothers, that's how she ascended, and to keep Greek bloodlines intact. To say that she HAD to be biracial – based on essentially nothing – because she ruled Egypt shows how little you actually know on Egyptian history. And if you think "invaders" care much about local customs or requirements on ruling a country, you really failed – well, pretty much all of history class.

  103. I saw the historical film footage of the Germans shooting the nose off of the sphinx.

  104. Also I have pre world war 2 encyclopedias that show thwesphinx with a nose.

  105. Nefertina Abrams I'm sorry if this seems harsh, but that is nonsense.
    The ancient Egyptian tradition essentially ended with the Persian occupation.
    Alexander the Great is sometimes called the last real Pharao, due to his respect for the Royal tradition and him actually going through the crowning ceremonies.
    Besides, the descendants of Ptolemaios generally kept close in terms of reproduction, there's no reason why Cleopatra would have a non-Greek mother.
    Here's the thing: even if her mother had been a pitch-black African, her dark skin would've been her only non-Greek feature.

    There were some truly great African rulers. In my opinion the Ptolemaic period is overrated anyways, Cleopatra's significance lies in the dramatic account of her (admittedly interesting) life, rather than in her influence on contemporary politics, if you ask me.

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