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A Black Pastor’s Support For Gay Marriage Costs Him His Flock

An African-American pastor’s support for same-sex marriage costs him his congregation.

Twenty-two years ago, Reverend Oliver White founded Grace Community United Church of Christ in a low-income black neighborhood of St. Paul, Minnesota. It was a strong congregation with 320 members — until 2005, when White stood up at a synod of the United Church of Christ and voiced his support of gay marriage. Then he came home and told his congregation what he had done.

“I thought they were with me,” he says, “but much to my chagrin, I immediately started losing members.” Over the next few weeks, two thirds of his members left the congregation.

This month, the church may close its doors altogether. White is currently struggling to raise $200,000 to pay back a loan on the church building by June 30. Even if the money comes through, there’s no guarantee that he will ever fill his pews again. But White, who once marched with the Civil Rights movement, remains adamant in his support of gay marriage. He spoke to me about his views on the subject and the deeper reasons the issue has met with so much resistance from the black church.

Tell me what’s happening at your church right now.

I’m trying to raise enough money to save our building from foreclosure. But the building itself is not the big issue. It’s become a symbol for a much larger fight. This is really about the gay community having a victory of sorts, letting the world know it can’t beat us. When I say “us” — I don’t happen to be gay. But I support the gay community with all my heart.

How did you become such a strong supporter of gay marriage?

You know, I’ve always felt this way. This is not something I’ve evolved into. I’ve always just felt that people are people. There are all kinds of different people — some are left handed, and others are right handed. Should we discriminate against people because they’re left handed?

That’s how I see it. Many of my friends happen to be gay, and some of my enemies, too. They all deserve the same rights I have in terms of being married, and the joys and benefits come along with that. I would not be inclined to be in relationship with another man, but it’s not for me to judge two men or women in a relationship. It’s about the freedom to love.

The people who left your congregation obviously believe that gay marriage is against the Christian religion. Which parts of scripture do they cite, and how do you read those same passages?

Most people who oppose homosexuality use biblical references found in Leviticus, which state that homosexuality is an abomination to God. Now, that’s a misinterpretation of that text. They really need to read further into it. In the same book of Leviticus, it states that if an unmarried woman is not a virgin, she can be put to death. We don’t put women to death for that reason nowadays.

The one law I quote frequently and try to conduct my ministry by is the one that Jesus gave: Love God first and then love your neighbor as yourself. And yet, we have laws in Minnesota in 2012 that say oral sex is a sin. You can go to jail for it. Come on people, wake up! Let’s get on with it!

What do your congregants say when you tell them that?

People are very selective about what they want to believe. And unfortunately, people do follow pastors who haven’t read enough. I tell people that Jesus did a whole lot of things that were contrary to laws that people seem to want to follow today. For example, on the Sabbath day, Jesus did a little healing. That got him in trouble. Jesus hung out with women, and many were prostitutes. That got him in trouble, too. But people have these preconceived views that won’t go away.

I’m not going to say that they’re dead wrong. My mother, bless her heart, had some ideas that were contrary to mine. I don’t think she would have disagreed on the issue of gays and lesbians. My niece happens to be a lesbian, and she and her partner lived with my mother. But there are plenty of other issues where my mother would disagree with me.

For instance, I try as hard as I can never to use patriarchal language. You’ll never hear me say “Father God” or “He healed me.” We should try not to give God a gender, because of this fact: If you ask a black child what God looks like, the child will say, “Like a white man.” Why? They’ve been brainwashed by what they see and hear around them. I try to let people know that God is much bigger than gender or skin color or any label that comes from our finite little minds.

There’s been a lot of talk in the news lately about “the black church.” What is the black church, and what makes it unique?

I love the black church. My own church is appreciatively, authentically, and unapologetically black. The black church nurtured me, and it was responsible in and of itself for the Civil Rights movement, for Martin Luther King. Many of our great entertainers came out of the black church.

Would it be fair to say that religion tends to play a more central role for African Americans than it does for society at large?

I might have to disagree with you a little bit on that. Obviously, African Americans are still a minority in this country. The last time I checked, the population was around 40 million. Religion is as much of a guiding force, if not more, for many, many Euro Americans. But proportionately speaking, religion may be more pronounced in the African American community.

I’m thinking of the entertainers you just mentioned. It seems fairly common for black musicians to mention God or to talk about being blessed. You don’t see that as often with white musicians, unless they’re in specific genres like country or Christian rock.

There is a prevailing tradition in the African American church that makes us more inclined to be extroverted with our religion. So you will hear a lot of African Americans say things like, “Have a blessed day.” Quite frankly, if someone tells me that, I’m somewhat taken aback by it. They state it out of habit — it’s a courtesy. They do it without thinking. But for my own part, I try not to wear my religion on my sleeve.

For example, there are schools in my community that are predominately African American, and you see people disregarding the laws that separate church and state. The first thing the teachers do when they arrive is turn on gospel radio. Then they take their Bibles out and put them on their desks. Here’s how I do it: I wear a cross around my neck, just like many, many, many African Americans. But the only time I take it out and show it is on a Sunday morning — when it’s appropriate in a church setting, with people who are like me. If I were to wear it when I was just walking around, it might offend somebody.

Even when African Americans are openly religious, I think there’s a perception that they tend to be liberals. That’s why the backlash against gay marriage has caught so many people by surprise.

In many ways, African Americans were the original conservatives. The majority of us live below the poverty line, so we have to be able to take a small piece of meat and turn into a meal for six. We’ve been doing it for years. At my church, too, we’ve always had to conserve — robbing Peter to pay Paul and borrowing from John to pay Matthew.

However, there are black ministers who continue to be conservative in the wrong ways. The majority of black churches practice “don’t ask, don’t tell” policies, saying, “We love gays and we love lesbians, but we hate the sin they’re committing.” They say this even when they know there are gays and lesbians sitting right there in their pews and singing in their choirs. If you’re black and gay, you’ll keep going to that church anyway because it’s part of your culture. But the church keeps pushing them into the closet.

What’s your response to that argument of “hate the sin and love the sinner”?

I say that being gay is a fundamental part of who people are. Psychologists who once said that gay people could be “converted” have come forward and apologized. It’s understood now that people are just born differently. They should not be despised for it.

These ministers are the same ones who tell me, “Oliver, this is not a civil rights issue like we went through 50 years ago.” But it is a civil rights issue! When you stand up and preach against the gays and lesbians, that’s discrimination. It’s pure and simple to me.

Do you think Obama’s support of gay marriage is really going to make a difference in whether black people turn out for him at the polls?

That’s a sad truth. Some influential ministers are telling their congregations to vote for Romney, who opposes almost everything else the black community supports. But not many will. They’ll vote Democratic — if they vote. But I do think a lot of them won’t vote at all this time.

That’s why I really appreciate what the president did. He took a real risk. I’ve actually written him a letter, telling him I’d like to go to Washington and shake his hand. Of course, he hasn’t answered — and I don’t blame him. If he invited me to Washington, it would really exacerbate the issue.

Even if you meet your fund-raising goal, you’re going to have to struggle to build up your congregation again. Have you thought about moving to a new area where more people might share your views?

No, because that would be the antithesis of what it means to be a follower of Jesus. Jesus could certainly have played it safe. But that’s not what he did — he challenged the rules, even when it made him unpopular with the Pharisees.

Besides, this community needs our church. We have young people here who can’t read or write. We have single women who can’t feed their families and are turning to prostitution. There are drugs being sold right across the street from our church. Our main goal should be reaching out to the community — and that’s what we will be focusing on once this fund-raising effort is over.

You mentioned Martin Luther King. If he were alive today, what do you think his stance on gay marriage would be?

I believe that in his heart, he would support it. But as far as his church was concerned, he would not risk saying that because it would divide him from his people. And I guess I can understand why more ministers don’t want to divide their flocks. Just look at what happened to me!

But this is how I’ve always been. Growing up, I was the first one to climb to the highest part of tree — and fall out. I’m always the first one to jump in the water, even if I can’t swim. But I’m still in the water. And I think many more will follow.




What people are saying

162 thoughts on “A Black Pastor’s Support For Gay Marriage Costs Him His Flock

  1. Tony Yola says:

    the black community is such hypocrites we all have a gay person or know a gay person in our family. we see them in our hoods all day. stop it with that bullish ok people it's funny how us black folk can make shit happen cause the bible say it's wrong but we let these politicians continue to keep us down, we keep voting for these democrats who don't cause the don't live in our community they drive here daily just like the white folks who come to town. long story short my people start standing for shit that effects your daily life an us as a community and not the way some one else decides to live their live.

  2. From this Pagan lady… Bless this paster who practices what he preaches. I wish him all the best and may his congregation grow.

  3. Thank you for publishing this interview. It's easy for me to be a supporter of gay rights here in San Francisco, where it won't cost me my income, or risk getting me attacked. Rev. White is taking big risks in his community because he cares about it, and I think he will be looked back upon as a brave pioneer for civil rights. I've already donated $50 towards keeping his church open at Believe Out Loud's fundraiser at invite others who care about this issue to contribute too.

  4. First, if the your church is a 'black' church, it is under the idolatry of human opinion, e.g., the idolatry of your ethnicity. The Church, the Birde of the LORD JESUS CHRIST, has no ethnic identity. Second, as it is written, judgement begins in the houses calling themselves by the Name of the LORD. If what you are doing is in violation, you will see more institutions experiencing famine and loss. Why? Because the LORD is coming soon, and there is a purification of the Bride going on right now. Third, what he calls a temptation is actually a way out. GOD has shown this man mercy even in his rebellion. Fourth, he himself is either actually practicing the abomination, or his spirit man has agreed with that spiritual depravity so much, his physical body is manifesting the evidence of its presence.
    All I can say is that this man needs to repent before it is too late, of the idolatry of his ethnicity and of his apostasy.

  5. The issue is not whether there is a homsoexual practioner in the family or in the hood. The issue is, why would we condone unholy living while calling ourselves children of the HOLY GOD? Politicians don't tell me what is right or wrong, my relationship with the FATHER through the SON by HIS HOLY SPIRIT does that. Even scientific evidence proves that homosexuality is a nemesis to human existence. And as a born again believer, I understand that human medical research agrees with ALMIGHTY GOD. Do not do that which is harmful physically, emotionally, mentally or psychologically.
    If we are truly born again, we must lovingly but sternly correct those who continue to live in a manner that is displeasing to GOD and to HIS Original Plan and Purpose. We must, if they are unwilling to change according to the Agent of Change, JESUS, put them out of their positions of influence in the Body of CHRIST, and if necessxary, put them out of the assembly.

  6. Sadly, your wishes will fall to the ground, because unfortunately, unless he repents, he will condemn himself to being outside the gate of the Kingdom of GOD.

  7. He's not a heretic. He is apostate. Falling away.

  8. Tony Yola says:

    see that 's exactly what I'm talkin about just got the word, but nothin about what really affects every day life not everyone is religious in this world. you know it's a hell of alot wrong shit done that does affect people lives done in the name of the lord.

  9. Serwa Bowyer says:

    I don't believe that. Things happens for a reason as along as stands and have faith God will make a way for him. Im praying for him now and believing all will be well.

  10. Helen G Thomas, you are in NO POSITION to judge him. It is the height of arrogance to claim what you say is, in fact, the will if the God you believe in. The good paster is following both the dictates of his Lord and his cocieounce. 'Love thy neighbor'. Anything less is NOT of God.

  11. Repent for what? Following his Lord's teachings of love? Or is that secondary to following the laws YOU THINK need to be followed? Who are YOU to so condemn him for his openness and compassion?

  12. Helen G Thomas,Ii would LOVE to see this so-called 'scientific evidence'. because all the science I'VE read (aka, science done by people who are in the field of biology and sexuality) says otherwise; homosexuality is, in fact, a VERY NATURAL phenomenon. It has been witnessed and documented widely in the animal kingdom. So really, your claims fall moot.

  13. There are things that go on in church why is this the one thing that tears a church apart? Not teenage pregnancy. Not drug addiction. No nothing. The church will support everything but gay marriage. If the pastors 15 y/o daughter ended up pregnant would they leave? Probably not. Gay rights aren't about religion…it's about everyone having the same rights. It disgusts me that any black person would be against gay marriage, or gays having equal rights, we (black people) had no rights at all but to be a slave.

  14. Sin is natural to humanity, because we act on feelings and not on truth.
    Look it up yourself on the Centers for Disease Control website. Also, there are even studies done by the lgbt community that support the fact that lgbt sexual contact is much more likely to result in physical, biological, emotional dis-ease.
    Look it up yourself, you have access to the computer, to google. Or are you afraid to find out the truth?

  15. What good are your prayers if you continually and deliberately sin against GOD? Not any good at all….

  16. Yes, GOD HIMSELF is the embodiment of Love. However, HE is also HOLY, RIGHTEOUS and will indeed Judge those who are in rebellion against HIS Commands.

  17. I don't have to judge him, judgement has already come to him. It is that simple.

  18. Do you attend an assembly? What goes on in your 'house' of worship? Start there.

  19. Serwa Bowyer says:

    God listens to prays sweetie. Trust, you was born into sin and there are things he answered for you when you felt he shouldn't have. It called Grace &Mercy. I believe that no weapon formed against him out of your mouth will prosper. Jesus said without sin cast the first stone. I love the Lord with all my heart and
    don't know where I would be without him. You have a blessed evening. Remember we are all a child of God.

  20. Helen G Thomas, you ARE JUDGING him. Making such a claim is arrogance. I have always, ALWAYS BELIEVED that the Creator wants all of their creation to love and accept each other as we are. Why would they shun what they have created?

  21. Helen G Thomas, I have already seen those studies, yet you ignore crucial factors. And that is the overall social stigma and treatment of those in the lgbt community. Look at how they're treated. Look at the high rate of suicides amoung gay and lesbian teens when they realize they're gay and hide it from their families. Read stories of people who were kicked out or disowned by their families when they came out. How many of them do you think turned to drugs and other risky behaviors to cope? It's BEING gay that was the problem. The problem was with those who CHOSE to stigmatize, reject and even demonize them.

    A homosexual 'practitioner'??? No, I am a practitioner of Paganism. One can be a practioner of religion. Homosexuality IS NOT A PRACTICE. It is a NATURAL OCCURANCE in humans. One does NOT.CHOOSE to be homosexual anymore than one.can choose the color of their eyes. Just as people CHOOSE to treat people.who are gay like cr#p.

    *I* am not afraid of the truth because I KNOW the truth; homosexuality is a natural occurance in humans. Science has PROVEN this. I'd like to know where you got YOUR info. YOU'RE the one who's afraid, mostly of taking time to do some serious inner reflection and wonder if your claims aren't based on what you tell yourself your God 'wants' or 'says', but to give justification for how YOU FEEL.

  22. Helen G Thomas, the God you claim to believe in is holy. But just because you think YOU are does NOT make you worldly.

  23. Anonymous says:


  24. Actually his belief is against everything God has to say about this subject

  25. It is true that God is love but how is it that people miss the fact that our Lord is a God of Judgement which you can find many times in the bible.

  26. Homosexuality is natural? amazing, two people with the same organs, is that natural, can homosexuals give birth to children, oh yes you will adopt, but never could you bear a child on your own.

  27. Why is this article misleading with a pic of Creflo Dollar on it? But all in all I would have left that pastor's church too…smh

  28. Gordon Gibson, the thing is, the God of the bible DOESN'T SAY ANYTHING about the subject. Those that DO speak are in Leviticus ( part of the OT, which Jesus REJECTED) and in Pal, where he talks about male rape and prostitution. NO WHERE does it talk about homosexuals involved in monogamous, loving relationships, certainly not in a negative way.

  29. YES, homosexuality IS NATURAL. All the science proves this. Children are not all there are to marriage and they are not the reason for loving someone. And really, adoption is a WONDERFUL thing and a beautiful word. It means that a child is WANTED by a couple. That they want to give them love. I know quite a few gay couples.who are excellent parents and they are just as effective parents as strait couples. There are studies to back this uo.

  30. Yet YOU feel it is within your power to judge this pastor because he expresses LOVE instead of judgement. Which would the Lord you claim to follow value more?

  31. Problem 1. With the increase of Homosexuality what would happen to the population?

    2. Do you believe what the bible says about this matter?

    3. And if so how do you justify this in your mind

  32. The God I follow believes in obedience to His word and His truth…if you can't stand for the Lord's truth then I can't stand with you

  33. It has nothing to do with parenting…when it comes to the act it's not natural…women with women…the vagina was created to receive a penis..that's why it has an opening that gets stimulated by a penis….men with men…it's not easy receiving a penis in your back end. That's why it takes several acts of sex to become used to the feeling and it still is not the same as if the sex was done penis to vagina….sorry to be so graphic but some people just can't seem to get the biology of it…the way a male and female body were created you can tell those parts were meant for each other because with couples of the same sex it takes a little more extra for them to come together..not to mention they cannot produce children together naturally…

  34. Gordon Gibson, 1. There is no 'increase' in homosexuality. Rather the social stigma against them is weakening, thereby making those who are gay feel safe to come out to family and friends, when just a few years ago there were greater instances of people being kicked out of their homes, losing their jobs and not having any kind of support system.

    2. Our world population is currently OVER 7 BILLION. We are NOT going to go extinct, nor are people going to stop having babies. There are, in fact, those who argue that there are TOO MANY of us.

    3. As I'm PAGAN, it's a moot point on whether or not I believe what the bible says on the matter. It's evident though that people who make such claims, despite knowing what it says, they have no clear idea on what it MEANS. Especially when you consider that the ORIGINAL bible was written in an old.form of Hebrew, later translated into latin and then translated into English. You REALLY THINK certain words, passages, etc. didn't get lost in the translation? The bible of today is NOT THE SAME BIBLE, word-for-word, that it was 500 or even a thousand years ago.

  35. Beth I would suggest you do your research on the Torah which is the Old Testament…it is very clear…Even with today's can look up the words in Hebrew and translate them into English and you will find that it's still the same…homosexuality goes against how my God created humans to be..but if you don't believe then it shouldn't matter to you what our bible and our God says…

  36. LeTisha Underwood, I am a Pagan. I follow the Lord and the Lady. They are equal in all things. They are loving and accepting of ALL. All they ask for in return is love for them and love for your fellow human beings. Not all that different from the God you say you follow. It's one thing to follow the letter of the law, but without the SPIRIT of the law, such words arw useless.

  37. LaTisha Underwood, homosexuality IS NATURAL. All the science and studies point to it being so. Prove me wrong.

  38. Following the words of God does not mean you do not carry the spirit..I love homosexuals.. I have family who practice that lifestyle..but yet I don't agree with it. I don't know what Lord and Lady you are talking about but if your god says homosexuality is natural then that's a god I don't want to serve.

  39. LeTisha Underwood, homosexuality is not now, nor has it EVER been, a 'practice' or a 'lifestyle'. It is a natural biological function and there are wnough science studies to support this. All I can say is that, I can't even
    begin to IMAGINE how scared those same family members were when they came out. It's not something they willfully CHOSE to be, rather a part of themselves they chose to accept and not deny.

  40. LaTisha Underwood, all the Lord and Lady ask of me is to care for and love others. Not an easy task, I assure you. But one.I try to fulfill. They judge me on my deedS, good and bad. Being homosexual, if I,were, would an issue.with.them because my sexuality does NOT make me who I am or.less.'deserving' and aide. Gay or strait, ALL PEOPLE are deserving of love and finding someone to share that love with. Homosexuals are no different.

  41. Natural my foot…..have you had anal sex? It takes a couple times to get used to and biologically the way a woman's vagina is shaped, it's for the fitting of a penis..that's why it get's stimulated and produces an orgasm during heterosexual intercourse and how it is the only way a sperm can enter into woman and impregnate her…when sperm and egg meets it creates a baby….there is no other sex act that can produce such a result…there is nothing natural about homosexuality..and when my family members came out.. I embraced them with love but yet told them where I stood…it is a choice..they choose to live a life that goes against their natural make up…if it is so natural then we would have been created Asexual and without sexual organs or with both sets so we could choose who we wanted to mate with…but we weren't..just because science says that two people of the same sex can find a way to mate, have a child, and parent does not mean it is biologically natural.

  42. Helen Monroe says:

    Amen Bro. Gordon…..there must be NO reading taking place..hehehe

  43. I don't know what Lord and Lady you're talking about but disagreeing with a person's lifestyle does not mean I don't love Lord and Savior Jesus Christ says I am to love others as I love myself, to which I do but He also said from the beginning He (God) created them as one man and one woman so that the two shall become one….I guess to you I hate adulterers and thieves, drunkards..etc etc

  44. LaTisha Underwood, YES, it is natural. There are more than enough studies to prove it. Sex isn't all about making babies. It's about physically expressing emotions and feelings of love that we have for another person. It doesn't matter HOW and it's really none of your business anyway how a couple chooses to have sex. Just because children are a natural result of sex doesn't make having them the ONLY reason for sex.

  45. I don't care what studies show to justify it…it's not natural because when I look at and exam my body I know that certain parts don't go together…it's not about making babies…if it was natural then we would have been created to be able to mate with whomever we want…a penis and a vagina work together and they create a chemical reaction that cannot be imitated..a vagina was created in such a way to receive a penis….if a penis was meant to go in the anal cavity then it would have been created just like a vagina…two men together and two women together can only simulate what a man and woman can do together..

  46. Sorry but it's not natural…when it comes to the act it's not natural…women with women…the vagina was created to receive a penis..that's why it has an opening that gets stimulated by a penis….men with men…it's not easy receiving a penis in your back end. That's why it takes several acts of sex to become used to the feeling and it still is not the same as if the sex was done penis to vagina….sorry to be so graphic but some people just can't seem to get the biology of it…the way a male and female body were created you can tell those parts were meant for each other because with couples of the same sex it takes a little more extra for them to come together.

  47. LeTisha Underwood, these studies aren't simply 'justification'. They are based upon decades of research and study done by educated people at the most reputable institionions of biology and medicine in the world. Their documented facts outweigh your personal feelings on the matter, not vice versa. It is really none of your business what a homosexual couple does on their OWN time behind closed doors. I don't see WHY anyone should care and make such a personal issue their business.

    I'd also like to add; homosexuality is NOT ABOUT SEX. I am strait, but not sexualy active. That doesn't make me any less strait. A gay person can abstain from sex their whole life and will STILL BE GAY.

    Homosexuality is NOT a behavior, as you seem to assume. It is a natural biological phenomenon that occurs within select people. Prove me wrong.

  48. LaTisha Underwood, what OTHER PEOPLE do with THEIR genetalia is THEIR business. I don't see how what they do in ANYWAY impacts YOUR life or anyone else's outside of those two people.

  49. What they do with their genitalia is their business…but yet it is still a sin against God…I never said it impacted my life…what they feel for each other is what they feel but it still does not make it right..just like if I was to have sex with a man who is not my husband…I may be in love with him but it is still not right and is a sin..

  50. LeTisha Underwood, that is YOUR interpritation and really, WHY SHOULD the God you claim to follow care AT ALL what two consenting adults do in the bedroom? If the God you claim to follow did create humanity, then he CLEARLY created gays and lesbians. Why would what he created be a sin? For something to be a sin, it would have to be harmful. How is what they do in anyway, to ANYONE harmful?

    What it boils down to is this; that is YOUR interpritation of the bible, NOT the pastors. You have no right to insist that he's 'wrong'

  51. Who says all sins are harmful but then again with homosexuality the population will dwindle with that group…it is not my interpretation of the's the word and the truth..have you sat down and read the bible? My God created one man for one woman with the purpose of replenishing the earth..however the enemy who is satan has a way of making people believe that because something feels good it is right…but that throws out the balance of the earth..something is a sin when it goes against the word of has nothing to do with being harmful…it has nothing to do with how it makes us feel or that sin may bring harm to another human being… I am seeing why the enemy seems to be winning because he did a heck of a job pulling the wool over people's eyes…I wonder what is the name of your Lord and your Lady…because I want to be sure to never worship under such falseness and ignorance. I would beseech you to sit down and read what it is you are trying to speak on but have no clue about…if you disagree on principle, I'm fine with that but don't try and twist the words of truth to justify your beliefs. I will pray to the Father above that if it is His will that He will allow you to see the light and know the truth.

  52. The only sinner's prayer GOD hears is the one that brings them out of sin into salvation. All others fall to the ground. All people are not children of the LIVING GOD. In order to be a child, one has to be adopted into the faith through repentance. If you are still calling yourself a woman having sex with a woman, there is no repentance in that. People such as yourself who stand in rebellion against the LORD GOD are children of the enemy, satan. In 1 John 3, it is written:
    8 But when people keep on sinning, it shows that they belong to the devil, who has been sinning since the beginning. But the Son of God came to destroy the works of the devil. 9 Those who have been born into God’s family do not make a practice of sinning, because God’s life[a] is in them. So they can’t keep on sinning, because they are children of God. 10 So now we can tell who are children of God and who are children of the devil. .

  53. I am holy because HE WHO IS HOLY lives in me, not because of something I did, but because of what JESUS CHRIST, SON of GOD and GOD as the SON, did.

  54. Feelings fluctuate. Truth does not. The shame and condemnation those who are practicing that deathstyle feel is internal to their knowing it is wrong. It is not natural to do what is unnatural, someone/something has to trigger that response in a person. The only thing science has proven that abhorrent aberrant behavior of any kind is detrimental to the mental, emotional, physical and psychological health of the human being.

  55. LaTisha Underwood, the fact that they ARE SINS shows that they are harmful and with good reason. Stealing is a sin because you are taking that which is not yours. Killing is a sin because, barring extrenuating circumstances such as self-defense, you are taking a life. An affair is harmful because it destroys a marriage. You insist homosexuality is a sin, yet fail to explain WHY. I doubt the bible explains why.

    The bible DOESN'T say it's a sin. You ignore the context of the situations described and take them literally. Leviticus forbids it because back in those times, priests would have sex with each other in the temples as a means of ensuring a good harvest. The Abrahamic God wanted his people to be different from that, so he forbade the practice. I was RAISED in a primarily Jewish household and have asked my stepmother about this, very subject. In Paul's letters, he is talking about male prostitution and how male prisoners were raped to demean them to a woman's status. And in those days, being demeaned to THAT position was the greatest humiliation a man could suffer.

    You can't seem to offer a single, valid reason other than 'the bible says so'. That alone is VERY telling. Because it 'says so', as you claim, you follow it without question. Why is the God you claim to follow responsible for YOUR words and actions? Did you always harbor this-there's no other word for it-disgust for homosexuals? Was it BEFORE or AFTER you read the bible? Did you ever take the time to stop and ask yourself WHY you view homosexuality as a sin? Is it REALLY the bible, or is it how YOU view it? Cause I can tell ya, I know MANY Christians who would disagree with you and,say you're wrong.

  56. Helen G Thomas, being gay is NOT a death aentence. Those studies PROVE that homosexulity is natural.

    Those emotional and psychological impacts you speak of are NOT a result of being ga, but due to the social stigma against gays. Find ONE STUDY from the 1960's done on the African-American population and tell me the higher rates of homelessness, drug addiction, alchol abuse and lower twst,scores WASN'T because of the attitudes of the day. Segregation, abuse, assaults… Would anyone DARE tell Black people, or Asians or Hispanics that it's 'their fault' that OTHER PEOPLE CHOSE to treat them in such a way?

    Homosexuality is not now, nor has it ever been a behavior, or even a choice. How we treat them-whether as fellow human beings or as monsters- IS a choice. Placing the responsibility on your God doesn't change this. YOU CHOOSE how you treat people. The problem does not lie with those who are gay. It lies with those around them. If someone beats up a guy because they were gay, it is THEIR CHOICE.

    If a family kicks their daughter out of the house because they admitted they were a lesbian, that it THEIR CHOICE.

    If a father CHOOSES to KILL his 3 year old son because he was 'afraid he would turn out gay', that was the MAN'S CHOICE. And yes, that REALLY HAPPENED.

    You see the kind of unecessary pain such stigma has inflicted? Is that REALLY all rigjt by you? Is that REALLY how your God wants us to treat your fellow man? In Jamaica, gays and lesbians are routinly beaten up and it's even encouraged by local authorities. In South Africa, lesbians are men who want to 'correct' them. There is some painful, downright inhumane things in this world that happen to lgbt people. How is it at all their fault that people CHOOSE to treat them like that? How are lgbt people in ANY WAY responsible for the mistreatment and dehumanization they are subject to?

  57. Helen G Thomas, who are YOU to so claim that gay people are, in ANY way, somehow 'less holy'? if God so made them that way, who are you to say otherwise?

  58. The LORD GOD made them human. Their sexual DNA was designed by HIM to be male with female, and female with male. HE also gave them free will. If their choices are twisted, that means those are their choices, not GOD's Perfect Will.

  59. GOD does not listen to the prayers of the willfully wicked. HE does, however, listen to the request for forgiveness from the wicked.

  60. If homoSEXuality isn't about sex, what is it about?

  61. Phenomenon is right….and you proved my point…not natural..but once again what they do in their own bed is their own business but I won't think it's natural or not right…and homosexuality is about's about being attracted sexually or intimately to a person of the same sex..just like heterosexuality is about being attracted sexually or intimately to someone of the opposite sex…

  62. And that research is a way for some people to justify that lifestyle..

  63. This so called "pastor" needs to read Ro. 1:18-32, 1 Co. 6:8-11, and 1 Ti. 9-11 in the New Testament of the Bible. And maybe he missed in the Old Testament of the Bible where God destroyed two cities, Sodom and Gomorrah, because of this wickedness. It's one thing to love people, but another to love their sin. This is the classic case of an apostate leading these people (the Book of Jude).

  64. HeteroSEXuality isn't about sex, either. See how that works?

    Is being heterosexual about sex? How about Bisexual? Or transexual? What exactly does having sex have to do with gender preference?

    'Lifestyle' indicates 'choice'. To be attracted to one's own sex is not now, nor has it EVER been, a choice. Again, it is NOT YOUR PLACE to tell them they are in any way 'wrong' for having sex the way they do. They do what is right FOR THEM. It is NOT for you to scrutinize.

    Please describe the 'homosexual lifestyle'. What do they do so differently-outside of intercourse- do they do any differently from you?

  65. Helen G Thomas, and it's YOUR CHOICE to shun them. God doesn't tell you to do that, but YOU CHOOSE TO because it's easy. because you use God as an excuse for YOUR prejudice.Who are YOU to so arrogantly claim their choices are 'twisted' when all evidence points to them being BORN gay? And if that is true, then who's to say that the God you claim to follow didn't make them gay?

  66. Helen G Thomas, PROVE that all gay people are 'wicked' for being gay. Prejudice is wicked.

  67. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because they were cruel and inhospitable to their neighbors and did not aide those in need. It is stated so plainly in Ezekiel 16:49-50, in Jeremiah 23:10:, Jeremiah 23:14: and Judges 19:16-22 Also read Judges 19:23-24, Judges 19:25-28:, Genesis 19:1-4:, Genesis 19:5: and Genesis 19:6-13: NOT ONE MENTION of it falling because of homosexuality, but PLENTY OF MENTION of sexual violence aka RAPE. it specifically mentions a woman's rape, where she is afterwards left for dead.

    Also, I would like to point out Denmark, Spain, Canada and various other countries have legalized same-sex marriage and guess what? They STILL EXIST. I live in Massachusetts, the very first state in the U.S. to legalize same-sex marriage and we are doing fine. We have one of the lowest divorce rates in the country.

    'Judge not for ye shall be judged'. Keep that in mind.

  68. I can' t believe this man even calls himself a Pastor? A pastor proclaims Good News!!! This guy is a disgrace to the name, and explains it in this quote: For example, there are schools in my community that are predominately African American, and you see people disregarding the laws that separate church and state. The first thing the teachers do when they arrive is turn on gospel radio. Then they take their Bibles out and put them on their desks. Here’s how I do it: I wear a cross around my neck, just like many, many, many African Americans. But the only time I take it out and show it is on a Sunday morning — when it’s appropriate in a church setting, with people who are like me. If I were to wear it when I was just walking around, it might offend somebody.

  69. The LORD calls us to flee sexual immorality, in all forms. When that form is so virulent that it is being forced on society through legislation, it is our responsibility as born again believers in CHRIST JESUS to oppose it.
    You, not being in CHRIST by your own choice, wouldn't know what the requirements are for living in HIM, by HIM and through HIM, so you really cannot speak to me about what HIS Loving Commandments for me are.
    GOD doesn't 'make' any of us sinful. We are born that way because of the sin of one man (male+female) Adam. And we can either follow the path of that sin by expressing our lives through deeper and deeper depravity and perversion or we can choose the free gift of salvation offered by the ALMIGHTY through the SON. It is a choice.

  70. Evil: Profound immorality, wickedness, and depravity A man shoving his penis up the anus of another man is wicked. It strips the one of his masculinity and humanity while increasing the perversity and meanspiritedness of the other. Putting one's mouth on an area of defecation and excrement causes health issues that will eventually spread to the non-homosexual population.
    Now if you have no boundaries about what is appropriate, my saying that doesn't change your mind. You probably think that drinking your own urine and dancing naked under the full moon while using a dildo as a worship symbol to mother goddess (ew!) is okay too. So my explanation to you is going to fall on deaf ears. In other words, if you refuse to see evil, I can't help you. It is your choice.

  71. Those studies prove that homosexual behavior leads to early death and disease. You are blinded by your own foolishness.

  72. For it is written:
    1 Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous and the wrongdoers will not inherit or have any share in the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived (misled): neither the impure and immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor those who participate in homosexuality,
    10 Nor cheats (swindlers and thieves), nor greedy graspers, nor drunkards, nor foulmouthed revilers and slanderers, nor extortioners and robbers will inherit or have any share in the kingdom of God.

    Guess that list includes you too Beth….

  73. Serwa Bowyer says:

    @letisha underwood so since you are expert on anatomy pls explain why the female pleasure part is in the outside and the male on the inside. Look it up. I can stick my finger up a guys you know and he would ejaculated quicker. IJS

  74. A man's sexual pleasure is in the head of the penis. Just because you can stick your finger up a person's anus doesn't make it right. Even infants' reaction to a rectal thermometer shows that having something stuck in an anus is not natural, because the instinctual, biological reaction is to tighten the butt cheeks.
    And the clitoris is on the outside of the vagina. It is stimulated by the shaft of the penis.

  75. Serwa Bowyer says:

    The funny thing is men put their mouth on women and some even have anal sex. So what you wrote to Beth was crazy.
    Also God listens to all prays, I didn't know he only listened to only the saved folks. Pls stop speaking for God because you will have to answer to him for that. Lord I'm glad he found favor in me. Be blessed

  76. Beth Goldstein I may want to slap you in your mouth. That is an 'attraction' or temptation as it were. But my choice would be to allow you to continue ranting and to walk away from your ignorance. When it comes to the well being of the young, of my family, of the world, it is my responsibility as an adult to tell a person when they are wrong. Of course, they usually already know it, so my telling them they are wrong just fortifies their need to change.

  77. Please read the Bible, and stop trying to justify your sin through 'heresay'. GOD does not listen to all prayers….
    John 9:31 declares, “We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly man who does his will.” It has also been said that “the only prayer that God hears from a sinner is the prayer for salvation.” As a result, some believe that God does not hear and/or will never answer the prayers of an unbeliever. In context, though, John 9:31 is saying that God does not perform miracles through an unbeliever. First John 5:14-15 tells us that God answers prayers based on whether they are asked according to His will. This principle, perhaps, applies to unbelievers. If an unbeliever asks a prayer of God that is according to His will, nothing prevents God from answering such a prayer—according to His will.
    It seems that the demise of this man's ability to lead a flock is in GOD's Will. Therefore, your request that he be restored would not be in HIS Perfect Will, so your prayer will go unanswered….unless of course the man repents of his apostasy. That would be GOD's Will.

  78. Serwa Bowyer says:

    I guess you didn't know men g- spot is their prostate which is where? Also that's not God like to tell Beth you want to slap her in the mouth. If you don't want discuss this any longer stop replying to the forum. Remember Matt 22:36-40 and the old saying if you have nothing nice to say don't say anything at all.

  79. He would value rightousness

  80. Christ would value righteousness, love can not justify sin

  81. Serwa Bowyer says:

    And who said I'm not doing his will. Oh yea of little faith. My prayers are answered all the time. I tithes, I give, I pray, I attend church and bible study regularly and God has done nothing but Bless me. So I know that my prayers will be answered but he must have the faith of a mustard seed. You continue to be blessed

  82. You're miss interpreting the bible Beth. Verse 50, what was the abomination?

  83. Beth Goldstein Leviticus 18:22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination

  84. Beth Goldstein 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

  85. Serwa Bowyer How is it crazy? If you try to insert something into an infant's anus, the little one's butt cheeks will clinch to keep you from doing that. GOD's Design, GOD's Plan. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should do it. Putting your mouth on a sex organ is wrong, no matter who does it. Do you even know the origin of homosexual behavior? It started with ba'al worship/pagan worship, which is why GOD forbade the Israelites to worship other gods or follow their worship practices.

  86. Thank you LeTisha. You are absolutely correct.

  87. Trying to bribe GOD with 'works' doesn't do any good. It rains on the just and the unjust. However, the children of GOD have special blessings that those such as yourself don't have. All you are doing is making it more and more apparent that you will be judged by all the Scripture, which your church and you seem to be 'cherry picking' instead of believing it all.

  88. Serwa Bowyer says:

    The funny thing is you are right about why God told them not to a list of things because they did it to worship idols. They thought if they did these thing it would make them better in all they did. God said only worship me don't be like the cannities or the Egyptians…only follow me. They all of the things worshipping idols.

  89. Hi Gordon Gibson: You are absolutely correct. Homosexuality and the acceptance of it are indeed increasing. Why? Because the media peer pressure convinces those who are not sure of their identity that they have to try this new thing or be seen as unworthy….

  90. I challenge you that if you really truly love the LORD, you would deny your flesh and take up your cross and stop crucifying HIM over and over. If you truly love the LORD, the only time you would be on your knees is to pray and seek HIS Face, not to put your mouth on another woman's vagina. If you truly love the LORD, you would ask HIM to show you what led you to do such a vile thing. If you truly love the LORD, you would hate what HE hates….

  91. Serwa Bowyer says:

    I don't cherry sweetie I read the entire chapter and not a few verses to justify anything. What I'm doing is studying to show myself approve and not put my trust in no man or woman. I'm the head and not tail I'm more than a conqueror in Jesus Christ. I'm filled with so much joy and peace right now as I write this. Again have a blessed day.

  92. And your point> You just proved mine, you repeated those verses that are common to those who don't really know GOD, they just know about GOD. You don't have to advertise your 'joy and peace', you just should live in it.
    My days are filled with the Presence of the LORD and HIS Many Blessings, not because I deserve them, but because HE is so good.

  93. Serwa Bowyer I challenge you also to think about the first time you were introduced to homosexual behavior and how you had to 'get used to' certain aspects….
    Anyway, I pray you are challenged every day from this day forward to seek the LORD and renounce what you do for the sake of your soul's salvation….

  94. Serwa Bowyer says:

    Thank you for your pray.

  95. When you hear HIS Voice, do not harden your heart. Heed HIS WORD, take the correction…HE chastises/disciplines those HE loves…

  96. Serwa Bowyer Obey…. Obedience is better than sacrifice.

  97. James the difference is simple, one is the endorsement of a ongoing sin, the other is sins that we all commit and we have the opportunity to as Christ to forgive us for.

  98. I guess we should endorse murdering women who have pre-marital sex…like the Bible says…Deuteronomy 22:13-21. Everyone is alowed their opionion…but its not fair to deny or be against certain groups and deny them rights just becuse of who they are…there was a time when me you and Helen couldnt eat or learn at the same places as white people…so for blacks to be against gay marraige is honestly just crazy to me.

  99. Again that's different, one is color of the skin and the other is behavior

  100. LeTisha Underwood hair weave isnt natural, breast implants arent natural, Cheetos arent natural…there arent any laws preventing us from using these products…

  101. Again, there is a difference between moral laws and cultural custom. Getting a hair weave does not jeopardize your entry into heaven. Taking a penis up the anus does.

  102. Women who have premaritall sex kill their own souls, because there are so many things that are negative that are attached to fornication. Not opinion, look around at all the broken people because they sin against themselves. As for the laws passed by human beings against other human beings that were dependant on the difference of appearance….those were the laws of men, not the Law of GOD.

  103. Gordon Gibson People believe being black is a behavior to be honest. People also believe being white is a behavior. That still doesnt mean whites or blacks, gay or straight should not have qual rights because of behaviors.

  104. James Moving Forward Carter I grew up in the south during the Civil Rights era. Black men were men then, and they fought for the right to be recognized as such. When 'we' started being integrated into 'wt' society, instead of 'us'n' picking up the habits of learning and entrepreneurship, we picked up their perverted sexual habits. Nowhere in ancient history of Africa do you see anything remotely in agreement with homosexuality. Europeans, Asians and Hindis, on the other hand, allowed homosexuality as a part of their historical 'documents'. Further, Africans were introduced to the habit through slavery. So if you see it as being 'crazy', you must agree with the house servants and children who were used for sexually perverted desires of the 'massah'….

  105. Helen G Thomas, I've got a newsflash for you; the word 'homosexuality', to say nothing of the concept, didn't exist before the mid 1800's. Before that it wad an old Latin word that basically translated into 'male prostitutes'. Homosexual men, by and large,do NOT fall into this catagory.

    The King James version of the bible is quite possibly THE MOST ALTER version of the bible. Example, where it says, 'Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live' was once oeiginallly 'thou shalt not suffer a POISONER to live'. That could mean anyone who peddles dangerous items or deliberatly makes people ill. But it was changed. Why? Because King James ORDERED IT to the biblical scibes. Only the wealthy could read in those days and what the king commanded was to be obeyed. I don't HOW homosexuality got in there, but to call it wildly inaccurate would be a MAJOR understatement.
    I know you probably don't like to think there are people out there who would deliberately change what you see as the 'Word of God', but know that the bibles of today were NOT the bibles of 500plus years ago. Those in power had a political agenda and could AND DID.order those responsible for translating the bible in their language to make 'alterations' as they deemed fit.

  106. The subject of homosexuality in Judaism dates back to the Torah, in the books of Bereshit and Vayiqra. Bereshit (Genesis) treats the destruction of the cities of Sedom and Amorrah by God. Vayiqra (Leviticus) forbids sexual intercourse between males, classifying it as a to'eivah (something abhorred or detested) that can be subject to capital punishment under Jewish law.

    We who are in CHRIST believe in the Old Covenant/Testament and the New. We are thankful that in JESUS' Sacrifice on the cross, humanity, through repentence, can escape the death penalty and have eternal life in HIM.

  107. Helen G Thomas, you need to look at the CONTEXT of the writing and know a little something about the period before condemning it. In those days, it was commonplace for the priests (women were NOT ALLOWED in the temples in those days) to have sex as a fertility rite. The Jewish God FORBADE this practice to his people, NOT homosexuality itself.

    SHELLFISH was also claimed to be abhorred/detested. Do you eat it? Do you wear two clothes of a different thread? That was abhorrent, too.

  108. Helen G Thomas, first off, threatening to 'slap me in my mouth' does not strike me as a very 'Christian' action. I am FAR from ignorant. I have done serious homework on the subject because i understand the dangers of taking something that was written thousands of years ago, in another language, in another culture and society, too literally in today's world.

    Secondly, you are not ANYONE to tell them they are 'wrong' for being what they are. They ARE as the God YOU claim to worship MADE THEM. There is nothing for them to change and they shouldn't have to just to make YOU happy, because what YOU want doesn't matter. It's what THEY want, what makes THEM happy. if you are gay, you are gay. There is NO changing it.

    What needs to change are people's attitudes about it and to stop treating those who are gay like they aren't human.

  109. Helen G Thomas, explain HOW.

  110. Gordon Gibson, for something to be a sin, it must invoke harm to that person or others. HOW does being homosexual invoke harm on ANYONE?

  111. Moral law does not change. There were male temple prostitutes (also known as 'dogs') as well as female ritual prostitutes in the pagan temples. Duh….check your history.
    Secondly, GOD's Loving Commands protected the people. There was no refrigeration in the desert, so death by food poisoning was a real threat. The LORD says that everything that we eat is to be received with thanksgiving, unless it is specifically dedicated to a god ….
    The situation with cloth is that sweat reacts differently on different types of cloth in the desert. Mold and mildew should be kept to a minimum. Polyester is a recent invention.,,so are washing machines and dry cleaners.
    Moral law throughout the WORD is the same. Ritual law changed due to technology.
    Oh, and did I mention the Salvatory Work of CHRIST (WHO is GOD) on the cross?

  112. Helen G Thomas, it is not BEING homosexual. It does not automatically mean that person is going to have sex. Do you think those high rates would exist AT ALL if lgbt didn't have such prejudices leveled at them? I'm not the foolish one; I can SEE WHAT CAUSES those rates to be so high. People who have long been marginalized and mistreated by society, as ANY sociologist and person of study in the field, WILL HAVE THESE HIGH RATES of early death and disease. it doesn't take a math genius to realize how lgbt people are treated is a DIRECT CAUSE of those rates. It is NOT THE FAULT OF THE LGBT COMMUNITY that people like YOURSELF feel the need to demean, abuse, dehumanize and even demonize them for being what they are. No one MAKES YOU treat lgbt like that. You do of YOUR OWN FREE WILL. Putting the responsibility on the God you claim to follow does NOT work. YOU are the one doing it.

    Your self-righteous hypocrisy makes you too afraid to consider the possibility that what you say may, in fact, be detrimental to the health and well-being of those people.

  113. And THAT is talking about temple rituals, NOT monogamous relationships. In those days, only men were allowed in the temples and they would have sex as a form of fertility rite. The Jewish God forbade this practice among his people, NOT homosexuality itself.

  114. Gordon Gibson, I am NOT 'misinterpreting' anything. Sodom and Gomorrah WERE destroyed because they were cruel, vicious and inhospitable. Where does it say they weren't? You telling me that all those other things were bad but 'not bad enough' for God to destroy it? Rape isn't 'bad enough'? Cruelty isn't 'bad enough'?

  115. Beth Goldstein How what? Besides, I didn't threaten to slap you in your mouth. I said i may feel like doing that, may be tempted to do it, but the HOLY SPIRIT WHO is at work in me to change me into a pleasing reflection of CHRIST, restrains me from acting on the thought.
    So if you are too drunk to stand up, and you get behind the wheel of a car to drive home, you mean I don't have the right to take the keys away from you and put you in a taxi to stop you from killing yourself and/or someone else? Aren't you wroing in that case?

  116. HOW is homosexuality in ANY WAY 'immoral'? What makes it so? how is it harmful in any way?

    We are a society that values the separation of church and state. It really doesn't matter WHAT you believe. Your religion has no place in a civil matter. If two people of the same sex want to get married, that it THEIR business, NOT YOURS. I live in Massachusetts where same-sex marriage has been legal for several years and we are doing fine. To say nothing of the fact that more than 10 countries have legalized same-sex marriage (including Spain, a very Catholic country) and THEY are all STILL STANDING.

    Marriage is recognized as a civil contract in this country and it has been since time immemorial. What a gay couple does in the privacy of their own home has NO IMPACT WHATSOEVER on your life or anyone else's.

  117. Beth Goldstein The are not 'gay' they are homosexual practitioners. They can change, people do it every day….drunks stop drinking, whores stop prostituting, smokers quit smoking and homosexual practioners who really want to stop practicing the act stop practicing it. Anne Heche did.
    When you talk about treating people inhumanely, start with the homosexual practitioner first. The anus is meant as an exit for fecal matter, bodily waste. To forcefully insert something into the small intestine, which is not meant to receive insertion, is an act of violence. You are basically ripping and tearing the area up, causing what is known as anal fissures. Those fissures become infected with the waste matter, and increase the chance of getting STDs and developing intestinal cancer. Further, a penis that has been inserted in the anus has feces on it. When a person puts that into their mouth, they then infect their gums because of the harmful bacteria.

  118. Beth Goldstein I am talking plain old biology. Obviously, the LORD knew all this in advance, as HE created the woman to be the companion and helpmeet of the man.

  119. Marriage was the institution created by GOD as the framework for family. For in Genesis, it states that GOD HIMSELF brought the woman to the man. That was the first marriage ceremony. Marriage was always created in the institution of the church. It was only in the early 20th century that it became a civil ceremony.

  120. Except you FAIL to explain WHY homosexuality is, as you insist, 'immoral'. There is nothing there that points to why.

    I DO know my history, thank you. That didn't mean people still didn't die of illness and food poisoning.

  121. Yes, they ARE GAY. It is NOT CHANGABLE. Those who claim they 'changed' only later came out and said they only said that due to the intense social pressure from family and peers. They simply refused to live the lie,people like yourself WANTED them to. Deep down it was NEVER about that person's 'soul' or well-being. It was about what OTHER PEOPLE WANTED and what made THEM feel comfortable.

  122. I am biologically programmed to bear children. Doesn't mean I HAVE to. Just because we were made this way doesn't mean that other forms of physical love aren't possible. A gay couple not being able to reproduce conventionally is not a reason to call what they do a sin.

  123. Marriage is now and has ALWAYS BEEN a CIVIL CONTRACT made by two parties. Women were viewed as property in those days and had NO SAY in who they were to marry. it was done as a means to ensure property and inheritance rights. You do not have to be Christian to get married. Atheists, agnostics and pagans like myself get married all the time. People get married in a courthouse; they are NO LESS MARRIED than couples who marry in a church. If you want to make an argument against same-sex marriage that isn't rooted in religious doctrine, go ahead because THAT is what matters in the eyes of the court of law. We are NOT a theocratic society.

  124. If you're using Anne Heche as your argument, you've already lost. Anne Heche is viewed as nuts/an attention whore. She could be Bi, ever think of that? She didn't 'change'. People just got sick of listening to her.

  125. Drunk driving presents a CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGER to the person driving and anyone else who happens to be on the road. A homosexual is NOT a danger to ANYONE, including himself just because he's homosexual. if you can explain HOW they are a danger to themselves or others, go ahead.

  126. In this country, marriage only became a civil contract in the 1920s, if I am not mistaken. Prior to that only the churches had records of and performed marriages. In western civilization, if you look at any familial history, marriages are recorded in Bibles and church registries, not in governmental documents.
    GOD HIMSELF created the institutionof marriage and performed the first ceremony between the man and his wife in the Garden. Genesis.

  127. Sodom and Gomorrah were 'exceedingly wicked' because of their sexual immorality. If it wasn't about homosexual demands, why did Lot then offer his virgin daughters as sexual substitutes?

  128. Crossing moral boundaries for the preservation of society presents a CLEAR and PRESENT DANGER to families and individuals.
    The excessive amounts of money that are not being allocated for hiv/aids in adult practitioners, some of whom deliberately 'bug hunt', is a burden on society that could be used for other things, like education.
    Breaking down the walls of decency opens the door for pedophilia (think nambla), s&m, bestiality, orgies and other indecent deathstyles to be introduced and accepted.

  129. Beth Goldstein you mean ba'al and astarte when you refer to the lord and lady you worship? (you may call them by other names, but the demons are the same.) No wonder you don't 'get it' you practice ritual sex in honor of those demons. That makes this conversation with you …well…moot.

  130. Beth Goldstein You know, it just dawned on me…you're a Jew! Amazing that people who are designated as the chosen of GOD would reduce themselves to standing against HIM in righteousness…

  131. As a person thinks, so they are. If a person lusts after another of the same sex, they are practicing homosexuality. And the responsibility is on the individual. GOD gives us the Standard, we choose to either obey the Standard or not.

  132. Beth Goldstein What they choose to do is detrimental to their health and wellbeing. That is all internal and ependant on the person's own choices.

  133. You're a Jew, you tell me why it isn't abhorrent to you.

  134. Because it's not my place to tell other people how to live their lives, especially when they aren't hurting anyone-including themselves-by how they live it. And it's not yours, either. It is NOT anyone's place to tell them what they should do to fit YOUR definition of a good, happy life.

  135. Except you fail to explain HOW homosexuality is a danger to anyone. HIV/AIDS has not ever been a 'gay disease'. No one knows for certain WHERE or HOW it started, just that it spread. Strait people are just as likely to contract it as gays and the fact that people believed it was a 'gay disease' contributed to it getting spread and is not most common among heterosexual people.

    NAMBLA has absolutely NOTHING TO DO with homosexuality. It has to do with adults preying after CHILDREN, which is not only morally reprehensible, but downright illegal and with VALID REASON. Bestiality- illegal and with reason. Harmful and dangerous to both animal and human. To say nothing of the fact an animal can't give verbal consent.

    Homosexuality…. ? Two consenting adults of the same sex in a monogamous relationship? What's the danger? You fail to explain.

  136. Who are YOU to claim that I would stand against the Creator? i stand WITH them, just not on the same level you seem to THINK I should. I'm not going to force my beliefs on you, but why do YOU see fit to force your beliefs on me and dare to tell ME who I am?

  137. HOW is it detrimental to their health by being homosexual? Explain, in detail.

  138. No, marriage was a civil contract LONG BEFORE THEN. There was nothing that said you had to get married in a church. Churches may have kept records, but that doesn't mean they were the 'final say' if you ere LEGALLY MARRIED or not. Not so long ago, marriages were arranged by two families as a means of mutual benefit. The children had no say in who they married. This was commonplace among the aristocracy and those who held positions of power. People got married in their homes by those who had the authority to marry them.

    The fact remains in THIS country; if you have a ceremony in a church, bu don'[t get a valid marriage license, you are NOT LEGALLY MARRIED. And THAT is what is being demanded and should be granted. Legal marriage, not religious marriage.

  139. Because his daughters were viewed as property and had no say. Because women were viewed as such and husbands and fathers could do to them as they wished, include hand them over to men who would rape them repeatedly and leave them for dead, like what was done with the old man's wife. Are you saying that it would have been perfectly acceptable if they HAD taken his daughters and raped them? You think THAT would have saved Sodom and Gommorah?

    The city was already doomed by that point. The arrival of the angels all but confirmed it. How would Lot giving his daughters to those men have made what they tried any better or 'more acceptable'?

  140. Beth Goldstein How many homosexual practing adults have you known? Heterosexuals fornicate; homosexual practioners fornicate more! Puhlease.

  141. Helen G Thomas, I know enough of them to know that they are committed to their spouses and partners. Homosexuality DOES NOT EQUAL promiscuity. In fact, I've known strait people who were MUCH MORE promiscuous than the gay people I know. All the gay people I've jnown were either in commited relationships or single by choice.

  142. Beth, what type of bible are you reading? It doesn't sound like the Holy Bible.

  143. Sometimes people like to interpret the Holy Bible in a way that eases their conscience. Or maybe it's what the Holy Bible calls having a "seared" conscience.

  144. People who are truly children of the Most High God love Him and do not "practice" sin (1 John 3). We know that He loved us when we were unlovable. And for this reason, we want to abide in this loving relationship. If His Word says something is sin we don't try to rationalize it, we live in obedience to His Word because He is a Holy and Righteous God and knows what's best for us. When we disobey His laws His Holy Spirit CONVICTS us of sin [NOT CONDEMN US], but those who condone and practice sin neither knows or loves Him. Jesus said in John 14:15, "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments." NASB

  145. For one, I'm Pagan. Two, apparently, I question what version of the bible YOU'RE reading. The King James version of the bible is quite possible the most DOCTORED version out there.

  146. Ilene DesignerSpecs Martin, except there's a problem with the issue regarding homosexuality, and that is, there is NOTHING to show anywhere in the bible how being gay is, in anyway, harmful to oneself and those around them. Rape certainly was shown to be harmful and soldiers would rape male prisoners to the position of women, which in those times, was the WORST thing you could do to a man. NO WHERE does it say anything about monogamous relationships between same-sex couples being 'sinful'.

    And in any case, it really doesn't matter what YOU CLAIM the 'bible says'. This is not now, nor has it ever been about you OR your beliefs. This is about whether or not the government of this nation has a legal right to deny same-sex couples the right to marry. As it stands, there isn't.

    And BTW, the bible also talks about 'following blindly' and not to believe everything you read or are told.

  147. Well that explains it. I didn't mean to offend you Beth, because the Word of God has already done that. When you're pagan, nothing is Holy, all things are relative. Continue to enjoy your life.

  148. It's not the Word of the God you claim to follow that offends me. It is the people who follow his Word, but make no mention of following his Spirit.

    Quite the contrary; EVERYTHING is holy and sacred to the Pagan. The earth, the water, air… every tree, every stone, every flower. Every bird that sings and every flame that flickers, every creature that crawls on the ground is sacred. because all are a part of the same whole that make up this world. To deny that is to deny that we come from the same source and when our time is done return to that same source.

    Blessed Be.

  149. Beth Goldstein: Witch please. You are supposed to be a member of the chosen people, yet you practice what is an abomination to GOD. Well, unless you repent, you know sheol awaits.

  150. You don't even KNOW ME as a person, but because I don't follow and worship the way YOU DO, it's an 'abomination', even though the word 'witch' in latin means 'wise'. I don't know.WHY you feel that me following the.Rede 'An ye harm none, do what ye will' is sny of your business or how it.affects you.

  151. Swallowing intestinal parasites; eating feces; tearing up their anus causing fissures that become openings for infection and cancerous growths. But then again, if the LORD and scientific evidence can't convince you, I surely am not going to waste my time trying.

  152. You're a witch. Case closed. Through talking to you. If the LORD GOD HIMSELF cannot convince you by HIS HOLY SPIRIT, I surely cannot. The rede is a self centered, selfish mantra.

  153. You're more ignorant than I thought. Marriage existed in all of history before governmental agencies did. If you get your head out of the spell book and read some history, you'd know that. Duh….

  154. Like arrogantly claiming that I'm somehow 'wrong' in my beliefs ISN'T selfiah and self-centered? How is the rede that calls for you to not harm another person in your works in ANY WAY selfish and self-centered? Attacking my belief system because it doesn't fall in line with yours based on ASSUMPTIONS that are not rooted in fact AND without even knowing me IS selfish and self-centered. You are not somehow a 'better person' just because of what religion you follow.

    You wanna have your beliefs, fine. But don't look down your nose at those who follow other beliefs as if you are somehow above them just to make YOURSELF feel bigger.

  155. Uh, huh. Sure. You respond just to 'dismiss' me, like you my school teacher or something. Like it were within the power of yourself to do so to make yourself feel in control of the conversation.

    How mature and …. Christian of you.

  156. I have read PLENTY of history ,dearie. Marriage did indeed exist before formal government, but that doesn't change the fact that it was a SOCIAL CONTRACT that predates any modern religion, certainly the bible.

  157. Because we all know that strait couples don't have any or all of those same issues… right?

    Seriously, focusing on whatever sexual habits same-sex couples engage in is NOT REASON to deny marraige rights. And whatever those sexual habits may be are really none of your business, anyway and NOT a place for the public to judge.

  158. So Beth, since marriage did exist in history (agreements are formal as long as they are agreed to, lol), what did it look like? That's right, male and female. Have a nice day.

  159. A week just for that??? Really…

    It looked like 'polygamy', mostly in the middle east.A man could take as many wives as he so wished. A woman couldn't divorce her husband because she was seen as property. Only if HE CHOSE to no longer be married to her was she released, but in many cases it meant shame on her family and even death for her. It was to ensure survival of the family line, as infant mortality rates were staggeringly high. Those things are no longer an issue. Women have rights and can divorce if they wish, people are living much longer lives and fewer babies die after birth.

    Also, there IS a recorded history of same-sex unions across the globe. While it's disputed whether or not these were monogamous love partnerships or simply as a means of affirming 'brotherhood', it's hard to say. But they DID happen.

    There is PLENTY OF ROOM for same-sex couples to marry, honey. All the reasons against it are simply irrelevant and have nothing to do with anyone or anything else. And posting acronyms like 'lol' in your posts doesn't help your case.

  160. one church – where the members FINALLY took a stand against a misguided pastor of THE HOLY BIBLE- I guess eddie long members are too brainwashed…. – no one claiming to follow JESUS should support gay marriage – no matter what country they live in.

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